June 27, 2022
Marta Dyczok and Andriy Kulykov
Andriy Kulykov (left) and Marta Dyczok (proper)

Marta Dyczok is an Affiliate Professor on the Departments of Historical past and Political Science, Western College, Canada. She was the host of the podcast Ukraine Calling. Andriy Kulykov is co-founder and Chairperson of Hromadske Radio.

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I heard a verified story of an individual who made his method along with his household from an occupied city listening to our broadcast, as a result of we have been telling them the place it was harmful for them to go and the place it was kind of protected to go. So, radio truly saves lives. I most likely can’t save lives in any other case. However I can with the assistance of radio.

Andriy Kulykov

Key Highlights

  • A Brief Historical past of Hromadske Radio
  • Do Journalists in Ukraine Take into account Themselves Info Warriors
  • The Significance of Media Literacy in a Battle
  • How Radio Can Saved Lives in Ukraine
  • Andriy’s Ideas on Ukrainian Identification

Podcast Transcript

Recorded on April nineteenth, 2022.

Thanks for listening to the Democracy Paradox: A podcast on democracy, democratization, and world affairs. Every week you’ll study huge image insights to raised perceive political points and occasions. These are complicated concepts that may be unfamiliar so, I’ve offered a whole transcript at democracyparadox.com. 

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As we speak’s company are Marta Dyczok and Andriy Kulykov. Marta is an Affiliate Professor on the Departments of Historical past and Political Science, Western College, Canada. Andriy is the co-founder and Chairperson of Hromadske Radio. I reached out to Marta, as a result of she wrote an article on the bravery and heroism of Ukrainian journalists throughout the ongoing Russian Invasion of Ukraine. A couple of years again she additionally hosted a podcast referred to as Ukraine Calling. Final 12 months she printed the transcripts in a e-book referred to as Ukraine Calling: A Kaleidoscope from Hromadske Radio 2016–2019.

Hromadske Radio is an unbiased radio station in Ukraine. Andriy will let you know extra about its founding and objective afterward. However his expertise makes this a special dialog. He was in Ukraine as we recorded so his perspective on occasions is totally different than most analysts and teachers. We talk about matters just like the position of the media, media literacy throughout a warfare, and Ukrainian id. It’s a special dialog from previous episodes however no much less essential. So, let me introduce you to Marta Dyczok and Andriy Kulykov…

jmk

Marta Dyczok and Andriy Kulykov, welcome to the Democracy Paradox.

Marta Dyczok
Andriy Kulykov
jmk

Properly, Marta, I’m actually impressed with the podcast that you simply had, Ukraine Calling. I used to be impressed with the e-book, with the transcripts, and I’m impressed with the podcast as properly. Andriy, I’m very impressed with the work that you simply’ve accomplished on the radio station that aired the podcast that labored on this. However I need to begin out a bit bit extra on a private stage simply to start. So, Andriy, I do know that you’re in Ukraine proper now. I simply need to ask how are you doing?

Andriy Kulykov

Properly, when you could have the viewers to which you broadcast, after they provide you with suggestions, and if you meet individuals who acknowledge you, not by your face, however by your voice, because of this we’re doing fairly properly.

jmk

That’s nice to listen to. Are you able to paint us only a small image? What’s it truly like in Ukraine proper now? What’s it like the place you’re at?

Andriy Kulykov

Justin, Ukraine is a somewhat huge nation, no less than in European measurements. Mainly, the spirit of resilience and the spirit of preventing for independence spreads throughout Ukraine even within the briefly occupied areas. However the scenario is totally different from city to city and from metropolis to metropolis. Till lately, many individuals in Ukraine thought that there are so-called protected havens for our IDPs and different individuals. The explanation bombing of Lviv with 5 rockets virtually concurrently has confirmed once more that there aren’t any protected havens. I even have some mates in a lot smaller cities, like lower than 100,000 residents, they’ve been focused as properly.

However, after all, it’s a special story should you dwell in Kyiv which is protected, I believe, by the most effective air protection methods in Ukraine and possibly even in Europe and the missiles are nonetheless hitting us and the bombs as properly. However you could have a reasonably good probability that they are going to be shot or hit by the Ukrainian air protection. After which some smaller cities the place you could have nearly no safety until the missile is intercepted on the best way. After which the Russian occupiers come, occupants come, after which they topic individuals to terror. So, it’s totally different. So far as Kyiv is worried, we’ve got air strike alarms no less than twice a day. It was rather more frequent till the Russians withdrew from the outskirts of Kyiv. However anyway, they’re bombing and shelling hitting the town with their missiles.

We have now a curfew. It lasts from 10 PM to five AM. It was from 8 PM to 7 AM, so we’re form of relieved. However we’re very a lot troubled in regards to the main Russian offensive that started yesterday within the east of the nation. Not solely as a result of it poses this risk to the nation, however as a result of a whole lot of hundreds, most likely tens of millions of individuals are once more being uprooted, once more being killed. Most of us can’t however take into consideration this as properly, other than our personal security. That’s life in Ukraine.

We name one another. We write emails to one another to get to know what is going on to our close to and expensive. The day earlier than yesterday, or was it yesterday, that Lviv was hit, I referred to as seven individuals who have been expensive to me on this metropolis. A few of them are from Lviv, a few of them are lately internally displaced individuals. And I obtained to find out about how they’re. So, that is life in Ukraine in the mean time.

jmk

There was a visitor on Ukraine Calling that was… I’m going to most likely mispronounce the title, nevertheless it was Oleixi Haran.

Marta Dyczok

Ooh, Oleixi Haran, Professor Haran

jmk

Sure, and on the present they stated, “Life in Kyiv appears to be like peaceable. Some individuals watch this taking place in a really distant area.” They usually have been speaking on the time when this was a battle restricted to the Donbas area. And listening to you discuss, it makes me really feel as these individuals in Kyiv did at the moment. As a result of life is peaceable right here for me the place I dwell and I’m watching this in a distant area, however on the identical time, I can’t cease having my heartstrings pulled by how horrific this sounds and the way horrific it’s once I examine it.

However on the identical time, it’s onerous to fathom what is definitely taking place, as a result of it’s occurring so distant. Marta, I need to shift over and convey you into the dialog right here. I do know that you simply’re not in Ukraine your self, however you’ve obtained great expertise working with individuals on the present, Ukraine Calling, and you’ve got so many shut private ties to many in Ukraine. Are you able to discuss a bit bit about what initially drew you towards Ukraine and its individuals?

Marta Dyczok

I’ve been touring to Ukraine for 30 years. I conduct analysis there each summer season. The final two summers, due to COVID I couldn’t go. However I first went once I was a PhD scholar at Oxford to gather knowledge for my dissertation on Ukrainian World Battle II refugees. And I landed in Kyiv in spring of 1991. And, as you already know, the Soviet Union was teetering on the time. And as that was taking place, I believed, ‘I don’t need to sit within the archives. I need to see historical past taking place.’ So, I contacted this British paper referred to as The Guardian, stated, ‘I’m in Ukraine. Do you want somebody?’ They usually didn’t have anyone. So, they stated, ‘Properly, we’ll strive you.’ As a result of, after all, a PhD scholar just isn’t a journalist, however they didn’t have anyone.

So, they employed me on a trial foundation. And a very nice man referred to as John Rettie initially co-wrote the articles with me. I might name into Moscow, inform them what was taking place, and we’d write it collectively. However ultimately I simply began writing my very own items. And I used to be in Ukraine when the coup occurred. It was truly in Pecherskyi on the time. I used to be in parliament after they declared independence in 91 after which issues calmed down. I went and completed my dissertation at Oxford, had it printed, and continued to do analysis and began being fascinated by writing about media developments in Ukraine. So, I met a variety of journalists again in 91 a few of whom I’m nonetheless in touch with and have met many, many alongside the best way.

After which in 2013, this group of journalists created this unbiased radio station referred to as Hromadske Radio. And Andriy can let you know about how they created it, as a result of he’s one among them. However then I obtained concerned with them as a result of Iryna Slavinska contacted me throughout the Revolution of Dignity and stated, ‘How does it look from Canada?’ And that obtained me began working with them after which Andriy stated, ‘Are you able to do that in English?’ And I began doing a little English language podcasts and that ultimately led to my very own podcast, Ukraine calling, which I did for 3 entire years. However let me Andriy let you know about how they arrange Hromadske Radio as a result of it’s an excellent story.

jmk
Andriy Kulykov

So, mainly, it was within the spring of 2013 once I was virtually concurrently contacted by three individuals who labored in media and who felt that they weren’t in a position any longer to work based on what their conscience informed them. They have been both silenced or made to publish one thing that didn’t match actuality. And people individuals couldn’t dwell mainly. So, they requested me, ‘What lets do?’ And out of sheer inspiration, I informed them, ‘Let’s create radio which received’t take cash from any of the tycoons, which received’t to take cash from any of the political events.’

And I selected radio for 2 causes. To begin with, I used to work for radio and knew how involving it might be and the way rewarding it might be. As a result of on radio, you get a lot nearer to the viewers than on tv, the online and even in newspapers. You may mainly discuss to them they usually can discuss again.

Marta Dyczok

I’m going to interrupt right here. Andriy could be very modest. He labored for BBC. He was one of many first Ukrainians to be employed when BBC arrange a Ukrainian service. So, that’s the place he obtained his radio background. Sorry, Andriy.

Andriy Kulykov

Yeah, mainly, I hadn’t labored for radio earlier than the BBC. So, I used to be fortunate within the sense that I virtually instantly obtained the very best or the most effective jobs in radio ever. Alternatively, I knew that radio was underestimated in Ukraine. A lot of the cash went to tv and the web. And since the wealthy and the highly effective don’t see themselves on radio, they assume that they need to not put money into it. Over the 30 years of independence, there have been most likely not more than 4 somewhat huge investments in radio. So once more, from my earlier expertise, I knew that when you find yourself thought-about not influential and never very glamorous, you might be form of allowed to work freely and it is dependent upon you as to how you utilize this chance.

So, this was my selection. Steadily we have been joined by a few dozen individuals largely from tv. Then we began to make podcasts, as a result of we had no cash to purchase a license and even to purchase a license from the competitors. And you possibly can place the podcast on SoundCloud, which we did. After which the Revolution of Dignity began and we have been instantly there. For per week or so we labored on SoundCloud. However then on the first of December when there was an enormous demonstration, an enormous rally in Kyiv, from half 1,000,000 to 1,000,000 individuals.

We have been referred to as by our colleagues from one of many music stations they usually stated, ‘Hear, we’ve got a frequency. However we wouldn’t have the abilities to report what is going on within the streets. You’ve gotten the abilities, however not a frequency. Let’s be a part of our efforts.’ They risked rather a lot. They really obtained two or three warnings from the Nationwide Council for Broadcasting which is chargeable for the licenses and overseeing whether or not radio and tv stations are fulfilling their licenses. However they’ve risked this and it’s referred to as Europa Plus. It’s a purely leisure music station. So, we labored collectively. We went to the Maidan. We reported from either side of the occasions and we regularly grew an viewers. And out of the blue, I began to listen to from individuals whom I had met 10 years in the past, labored collectively and misplaced contact. And that is how we grew.

After which after the revolution was received, we have been in a position to get hold of a frequency. First briefly, after we went to the State Broadcasting Firm and stated, ‘Hear, your conduct throughout the revolution was not precisely irreproachable and our presence in your frequency could also be form of a safeguard in opposition to some hotheads taking motion in opposition to you.’ Then the Chief of Broadcasts thought for awhile and noticed the good thing about this. So, we obtained it and our mates from the music station went again to the music enterprise. And once more, we have been poor. We have been poor, as a result of we purchased our first gear from our personal cash. One thing like 500 Hryvnia from each one among us. And that is actually a small cash even again in 2013.

So, we didn’t manage to pay for even to hire some premises. After which there was one other media group which got here to our assist. A tv channel referred to as Magnolia. They allow us to use their premises for a 12 months with out taking a Hryvnia from us they usually even allow us to use their kitchen and a number of the cookies that they placed on the desk each morning. After which when the warfare began and the warfare began again in 2014 with the Russian invasion – truly, the Russian annexation of Crimea after which the invasion within the Donbas. We determined that that is the place we’ve got to broadcast. And most of our transmitters have been within the East of Ukraine.

We have now now misplaced all however one out of 9. And doubtless we are going to quickly lose one other one, as a result of even when the Russians don’t seize Kramatorsk, there’s nonetheless shelling and bombing and all this type of stuff. So, we at the moment are broadcasting in Kyiv. We can be found on our web site and in the previous few months some Western Ukrainian stations began to rebroadcast us.

jmk

So, Andriy, Marta lately wrote a brief piece for the Journal of Democracy the place she wrote, “Info is on the heart of any warfare.” And she or he went on to explain the journalists throughout conflicts just like the Russian Invasion of Ukraine. She described the journalists as data warriors. Do you view your self as an data warrior?

Andriy Kulykov

Sure, I believe I do. However it’s not my selection or somewhat it’s my selection within the circumstances that encompass me. I’ve to be a warrior, as a result of my nation is beneath assault. And I believe I do know the worth of well timed and verified data.

And I do know that some individuals survived within the occupation, as a result of they obtained data from us. They didn’t have entry to tv. They didn’t have entry to the web. I do know of a verified story that in a city occupied by the Russians, individuals discovered an outdated radio receiver within the loft. They obtained it repaired they usually listened to radio together with our broadcasts, mainly hiding it from the Russians. I heard a verified story of an individual who made his method along with his household from an occupied city listening to our broadcast, as a result of we have been telling them the place it was harmful for them to go and the place it was kind of protected to go. So, radio truly saves lives. I most likely can’t save lives in any other case. However I can with the assistance of radio.

jmk

That’s simply exceptional to listen to. Marta, you wrote the piece that I simply talked about. And what I discovered exceptional about it’s that we discuss in regards to the present period that we dwell in as an data age and we discuss in regards to the warfare that Russia has introduced on Ukraine as a hybrid warfare, as a partly data warfare. What does it imply to have interaction in an data warfare?

Marta Dyczok

Properly, data warfare is as outdated as historical past. So, that is actually nothing new. What’s new is that we dwell in a contemporary telecommunications age the place data travels the globe actually rapidly. So, the spreading of lies and disinformation has been occurring since wars have existed, which is endlessly. However the velocity with which that occurs, that’s the distinction. And in addition, the proliferation of media shops and several types of media signifies that the disinformation could be magnified and distorted and it’s very troublesome to problem the disinformation that’s being unfold.

So, my favourite instance is when Russia annexed Crimea, they put out this narrative that Crimea has all the time been Russian. Which is completely false, as a result of Crimea grew to become a part of Russia on account of imperial growth. After they conquered Ukraine, then they conquered Crimea and the remainder of the empire. And that didn’t occur till 1783. And earlier than that Crimea was the homeland of the Crimean Tatars. It was the Crimean Khanate. So, after what they name the primary occupation when a lot of them fled. It grew to become a part of the Russian Empire after which it was a part of Ukraine for a very long time. So, this narrative that it has all the time been Russian is fake. However it took me a minute or extra to elucidate the historical past.

So, there’s this well-known phrase {that a} lie has circled the world whereas the reality is simply placing on its boots. So, to get that lie out there’s quick, however to appropriate it’s gradual. And we’ve seen that with this complete Russian disinformation marketing campaign in opposition to Ukraine for eight years. Some individuals nonetheless name it a Ukraine disaster making it sound like Ukraine is inflicting a disaster when in reality, Russia has been attacking Ukraine and continues to escalate. So, that’s the distinction. And I’m in awe of journalists in Ukraine, one among whom is talking with us, however many others who’re actually risking their lives to get data, to gather data and to disseminate it each inside their nation and internationally.

jmk

Andriy, you talked about a narrative about how individuals’s lives have been saved, as a result of they have been in a position to entry a radio to have the ability to get data. How onerous is it for individuals in Ukraine proper now to acquire data?

Andriy Kulykov

It’s somewhat troublesome. It’s important to know to whom you take heed to, whom you watch, what you learn, and, after all, I believe that there’s a selection of sources that you could be rely on. And, after all, you must know the actual form of speech that’s being utilized by the navy, by the officers. As a result of one thing that we could settle for, or we could understand as a really clear assertion, could have totally different layers.

As an example, the navy time period, ‘Our forces took this or that village or this or that metropolis beneath management.’ Again in 2014, this was a really unfamiliar time period for a lot of, many individuals in Ukraine. And within the preliminary stage, I believed that this meant that the Ukrainian forces are there. That the town is secured and all this type of stuff. However then I began to note some discrepancies in what was understood and what was actually taking place. So, I now know {that a} metropolis or a village or a locality is beneath the management of those forces signifies that they’ll truly attain it with their artillery bombardment. And this doesn’t imply that Ukrainians are there or Russians are there for that matter.

If we examine a livid battle, then there’s an indication of alarm on this. If we examine counter assaults, this doesn’t imply that there’s a counter offensive. So, other than having dependable data, you must know how you can work with this data. You additionally should have in mind alternative ways of counting the losses as an illustration. As a result of each military that I do know no less than tends to rely the losses of the enemy on report and their very own losses on the verified report. And, after all, in lots of circumstances you can not go and rely the our bodies or rely the wounded. So, we’ve got to grasp all of this. Nonetheless, I need to say that most often, the Ukrainian official data could be relied upon.

Though if you take a look at a number of the stuff that’s there on Telegram Channels and different social media, even when this comes from an individual who’s carefully linked or has an official place, this doesn’t essentially imply that you may utterly depend on this individual. I bear in mind one story which occurred I believe within the second week of the full-scale invention when the Russians captured one of many cities within the south of Ukraine. And there was a narrative in regards to the Ukrainians who captured the Russian Armored Private Provider and waved the Ukrainian flag and all this type of stuff. And we have been hasty. After all, this was welcome information for us.

So, we printed it on our personal telecom channel. However later it appeared that the story was a narrative of bravery, however not the story of the seize of the enemy. There was only one man who jumped on the APC and waved the Ukrainian flag. So, we needed to appropriate this story on our telecom channel and on our web site. How straightforward it’s to get data relies upon not solely on the provision of knowledge, but additionally the media literacy and the extent of your potential to work with media. Bodily this isn’t very onerous for many of Ukraine. However relating to making sense of what you’re being informed, that is one other query.

jmk

So, you informed a narrative earlier the place the flexibility to not simply get hold of a radio, however to acknowledge that your supply of knowledge was dependable truly made the distinction in whether or not or not they might survive or whether or not or not they wouldn’t survive. I think about that media literacy throughout this era is extremely essential and that many listeners, many simply common residents, are having to actually improve their skills throughout this era. How efficient are your listeners? How efficient are common Ukrainian residents at having the ability to determine that the data that they’re receiving, the radio broadcast that they’re listening to, is one which’s prime quality that can present them data that can assist them decide what city to go to subsequent or whether or not or to not evacuate or no matter it’s that they may must know? How efficient are they at discerning totally different sources of knowledge?

Andriy Kulykov

Regrettably, on a regular basis teaches them. On the value of their very own life or well being they get to know what they’ll imagine, whom they’ll belief. And naturally, if unwillingly, we lead some individuals into deception, then we’re a part of a tragedy. So, we’ve got to be very, very cautious and, after all, each story which I quoted, and I’ve extra such tales, individuals unfold this information. They inform one another that, ‘Hear, this radio station informed us so and so or this web site publishes helpful data.’ We must always not underestimate the facility of the phrase of mouth, particularly now when individuals worth one another’s lives. They worth the integrity of the nation. They worth our collective resistance and collective resilience.

So, they do inform one another about trusted sources of knowledge and once more, about those that you can not belief. Sadly, there are some sources and a few audio system who create an impression that they’re very dependable. I do know some individuals who I do know fairly properly they usually have developed a behavior to look at some individuals on YouTube or Instagram who’re simply soothing them, calming them down. And it is a very human characteristic. You need to retain your calm. You need to have one thing that distracts you from the horrors. So, they take heed to these individuals who informed us instantly in 2014, there have been individuals who stated the Russian assault in opposition to Ukraine is the beginning of the inevitable fast finish of the Russian Empire. Folks are inclined to imagine this. Folks need to imagine this.

So, mainly, each truthful report that we produce, each warning that we broadcast about hazard, and each schedule of evacuation trains or so-called inexperienced corridors or the instruction of how you can behave in case the chemical substances are poor and from a broken plant teaches individuals, together with us, to be media literate. Each mistake doesn’t solely endanger their lives, however can also be detrimental to our work.

jmk

Marta, on Ukraine Calling, lots of the company described a warlike ambiance between Ukraine and Russia and this was lengthy earlier than the current escalation, lengthy earlier than the current invasion into different components of Ukraine. As a result of there was a warfare occurring within the Donbas area and also you’ve talked about that already. That the warfare didn’t start this previous 12 months. It started all the best way again in 2014. Have Ukrainians felt that they have been at warfare with Russia earlier than this previous 12 months?

Marta Dyczok

Properly, now that’s a wonderful query. As a result of as you’ve stated, I imply, this didn’t begin in February. This began in February of 2014 when first Crimea obtained annexed after which the supposed Novorossiya Venture began which was Russia’s try to realize management over components of Ukraine to destabilize it. They succeeded solely in capturing components of the Donbas. Though there have been makes an attempt in varied different areas like Odessa, Kharkiv and Kherson. So, the assault was coming. The Ukrainians managed to stem it on the time. After I began the podcast Ukraine Calling, one of many first episodes was with professor Oleixi Haran and Brian Whitmore who’s a US based mostly Russia skilled. And it was summer season of 2016 they usually each stated that warfare is the brand new regular in Ukraine.

And what that meant was that there have been areas of intense preventing within the Donbas and there have been different components of the nation the place you didn’t truly really feel the warfare, nevertheless it affected all the nation, as a result of individuals from Crimea and from the warfare zones grew to become internally displaced. So, they have been showing in different components of Ukraine and Ukrainian women and men have been being conscripted to go battle within the warfare zone. The distinction now’s that it’s a large assault in opposition to the entire nation. However what Ukraine as a complete is experiencing, the Donbas has been experiencing for eight years now.

jmk

So, Andriy, as I examine what’s taking place in Ukraine, one of many themes that I come throughout is that this sense of renewed Ukrainian id or the sense of – I don’t need to say renewed – however only a heightened stage of sense of id of Ukrainians as to who they’re as a individuals, a better connection to their nation. However that’s what I’m studying from a distance. And I’d like to listen to your view, from any individual who’s very a lot experiencing this firsthand. Has Ukrainian id modified throughout this era?

Andriy Kulykov

Sure, we’re listening to rather a lot about how the Ukrainian id has grown. It has intensified and folks have turn into extra united and extra conscious of their widespread future. That is solely as a result of that is seen in a transparent method in opposition to the background of what’s taking place. There’s additionally a saying that the Ukrainian political nation has shaped after or on account of the Revolution of Dignity. I say no. The Revolution of Dignity was doable, as a result of the Ukrainian political nation was there. The Orange Revolution was doable as a result of the Ukrainian political nation was there again in 2005. And the Ukrainian independence was doable as a result of the Ukrainian political nation in a nascent kind was there as properly. So, what I’m saying is that the circumstances and the outright aggression has made this simpler to see.

I don’t assume that the essence of our id has modified. The shape, sure, however then we want this kind as a way to efficiently battle the aggression finest. After all, many extra of us grew to become extra outspoken as a result of the occasions require this. You may not be an unseen Ukrainian. It’s important to be a manifest Ukrainian. And this doesn’t, by the best way, require talking Ukrainian. Though I favor the individuals round me are converse Ukrainian and skim Ukrainian, all this type of stuff. However the actuality is that tens of millions over my compatriots favor Russian or another language. Sure. A few of them have modified even now. I do know individuals who switched to Ukrainian in 2014. I do know individuals who have switched to Ukrainian 55 or so days in the past. And I welcome this, however then it isn’t an easy course of.

And I’ve a number of Jewish mates in Ukraine. Politically they’re Ukrainians. And by the best way, a few of them have been talking Ukrainian for a number of years now, even earlier than the Russian aggression, even earlier than 2014. However a few of them simply didn’t really feel that talking Ukrainian makes them extra Ukrainian than is required. So, I say the essence of our id has not modified, however we’ve got to point out the world that Ukrainians are totally different. That Ukrainians have one thing that distinguishes them from Russians, as a result of this is among the messages of Russian propaganda. There isn’t any such nation as Ukraine neither ethnically nor politically or in another dimension.

Hear, after they say that we’re a part of the quote unquote Nice Russian nation, because of this each Ukrainian is endangered as a result of each one among us is a dwelling proof that you simply Ukraine and Ukrainians exist. That’s why they have an inclination to kill us so simply, as a result of they want our deaths to show their level. If there aren’t any dwelling Ukrainians then after all the Ukrainian nation doesn’t exist. That’s what they have been doing again within the Nineteen Thirties after they tried to kill the Ukrainian nation by starvation. That’s what they did to the Crimean Tatars after they took all the inhabitants. The complete Crimean Tatar inhabitants was taken to Asia. And that’s what they’re attempting to do now by totally different means.

So, id… Who am I? I used to be born of Russian dad and mom in Ukraine. My mom spoke lovely Ukrainian, however she very hardly ever used it, as a result of my father didn’t converse Ukrainian. He understood Ukrainian, however he by no means made an try to really converse it. He voted for independence. He voted for independence, as a result of he knew this individuals as a individuals and he knew that Ukraine and Ukrainians exist. My brother who is barely a 12 months and a half youthful than me. He speaks Russian. Ninety % of his communications is Russian, whereas 90% of my communication is Ukrainian by selection. I nonetheless converse Russian to my brother. Who’re we? I’m Ukrainian and he’s Ukrainian too, though he speaks a special language.

It’s very, very difficult and in lots of points, I don’t agree with those that say that the Ukrainian nation particularly the Ukrainian political nation is a current phenomenon. It’s a very skilled and a really hardened phenomenon, as a result of we all the time needed to show that Ukraine is there and Ukrainians are there.

jmk

So, day by day there’s a variety of reporting on Ukraine within the American press, nevertheless it’s reporting for an American viewers. What does the American press or the abroad press overlook of their reporting about Ukraine?

Marta Dyczok

I learn the headlines of The New York Occasions and The Washington Publish and I scan others as I’ve time. I might say that the reporting on Ukraine has improved tremendously within the final 55 days or so and I believe that’s largely as a result of there at the moment are reporters on the bottom. The reporting about Ukraine beforehand was from individuals who have been sitting both in Washington or presumably so far as London. However only a few Ukrainian voices and Ukrainian commentators have been a part of the story. So, that has modified tremendously.

What I nonetheless discover troublesome is that there’s a concentrate on emotion. ‘How do you’re feeling about what’s taking place?’ Versus, ‘What is going on?’ and ‘What are the implications of what is going to occur subsequent?’ So, the form of emotional tone in a variety of political reporting, I discover that annoying, as a result of I don’t see that there’s a lot use to it, until you’re doing a human-interest story. Ukrainian media professionals have labored very onerous to attempt to get their message out, to make use of the proper terminology. And we nonetheless hear this coming from Presidents Zelensky’s night addresses, ‘That this isn’t a Ukraine disaster. That is Russia’s aggression in opposition to Ukraine.’ We nonetheless hear the terminology not all the time fairly proper. So, that’s the place I believe I want to see enchancment.

And one final thing could be very typically Western journalists don’t credit score their Ukrainian colleagues. Any individual who lands in Ukraine, doesn’t converse the language, doesn’t know the logistics, they rent Ukrainians to assist them. And people Ukrainians fairly often don’t get credited. And there’s an instance from very early on within the warfare that an American journalist was killed and his fixer, his Ukrainian colleague, was killed. However it was solely the American loss of life that was reported. And Andriy, I don’t know should you bear in mind this case. I can’t bear in mind which media outlet it was. However there was an enormous uproar inside Ukraine’s media circles that the American loss of life was reported. The Ukrainian loss of life was not. So, I believe there’s been an enchancment in that, however once more, Ukrainians will not be handled as equals in each sense that they need to be. That will be my commentary.

Andriy Kulykov

I are inclined to agree with Marta however I don’t learn as a lot American press as she does. However I get fixed calls from Canada, the USA, and the UK. I truly assume that the majority journalists and radio presenters who I discuss to are very skilled in asking the questions. And make a comparability of what’s life in Ukraine like and what I personally expertise. As a result of a lot of the first questions that I get from the BBC or NPR or CBC or its associates is mainly, ‘What do you see out of your window?’ And that is the stuff that needs to be requested of me as a standard individual. Not, ‘How do you assess the strategic scenario and all this?’ So, I believe that overseas colleagues are heading in the right direction largely.

Nonetheless, generally I really feel that they learn and watch an excessive amount of of the Russian media or propaganda. On the primary day of the full-scale invasion, after we have been made to go to the bomb shelter, there was a name from a tv station in a single huge Asian nation. I don’t understand how they managed to get via, as a result of this was the one name that I used to be in a position to settle for. However the first query was, ‘What am I going to do now when Kyiv is overrun by the enemy.’ On the primary day, I needed to clarify to them that this was most likely not going to be the scenario. However from my discuss with them, it was clear that they relied mainly, primarily, or at the moment even completely on Russian sources. That’s why the query was like this.

However once I, as an illustration, obtained a name from one African nation, the man who spoke to me from there was a newspaper reporter. It was seven or eight days into the invasion and he was already rather more well-informed. And from our discuss, I obtained the impression that he obtained his data both from either side or largely from Ukrainian sources and a few Western reporting and that was completely totally different dialog.

jmk

So closing query for you. In years from now when future generations of Ukrainians who didn’t expertise the Russian aggression in opposition to Ukraine look again on this time interval, after they study this time interval, how are they going to recollect this period?

Marta Dyczok

I believe that is the primary time that we’re dwelling via a warfare in actual time and every thing is being documented to the purpose that I don’t understand how anybody’s going to have the ability to undergo all the info. You realize, as a historian, I’m all the time trying to see what sources we work with and I’m busy amassing my very own sources, however there’s a lot. Each visible and audio. So, I believe the query shall be what filters individuals shall be utilizing. As a result of you may’t presumably undergo all the fabric. So, it will likely be what questions individuals shall be asking and what they’ll select to take a look at. And that shall be very fascinating to see what individuals select to look at. And that clearly will form the best way they bear in mind issues.

As a result of I’m proper now cataloging the speeches of President Zelensky and analyzing them. However, after all, there’s additionally the Overseas Minister and the Protection Minister and all these different people who find themselves making statements. There are tons of media experiences. There are tons of Twitter feeds. There’s simply a lot data. The impression that I’m getting as I’m dwelling via it and watching it’s the valor of the women and men on the entrance is actually superb. Whether or not it’s within the areas round Kyiv or…

Mariupol is what’s fascinating me proper now. Everyone retains considering, ‘Oh my God, they’re not going to carry out.’ They usually hold being informed to give up they usually’re like, ‘No,’ they usually’re holding out. And that’s fairly phenomenal. So, that’s, going to be, you already know, a battle that shall be studied endlessly and nonetheless hope that they are going to someway have the ability to make it.

Andriy Kulykov

Yeah, Justin, I might very very like your prediction or your suggestion to come back true. That we should clarify or depart a message for future generations about what we skilled on this time of an outright Russian aggression. Figuring out the historical past of relations between Russia and Ukraine and the historical past of relations of Russia together with her neighbors, I’ve large doubts that we are going to have a lot to elucidate. I might love for our children, our grandchildren, our great-grandchildren to hunt explanations from our time, to come back to us to get this expertise. On this respect. I believe I’m a realist. This isn’t the final try of Russia to crush Ukraine.

This isn’t the final try of Russia to revive its imperial magnitude and we have to have all of the assist that we want. You realize, many individuals have stated this earlier than, however I’ll repeat this. Once we say that we want the sky over Ukraine closed, it is because in the mean time we’re closing the sky or defending the sky over all the democratic world.

jmk

Properly, thanks a lot for becoming a member of me at this time. Marta, I’m very impressed with the work that you simply’ve accomplished. I cherished studying via the transcripts. I like the podcast Ukraine Calling. Andriy, thanks a lot for the work that you simply proceed to do. And thanks a lot to your ideas and like everybody, we give you prayers and, hopefully, we will discover methods that will help you much more. Thanks a lot.

Marta Dyczok
Andriy Kulykov
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